Maybe It’s Not Recklessness With Michael Vick
BREAKING NEWS, Eagles, News, Quarterbacks Monday, May 7th, 2012
I just finished reading Sheil Kapadia’s Moving the Chains blog on Philly.com. He wrote an article, “The myth behind Vick’s 2011 injuries”, laying out the circumstances of four injuries which Michael Vick suffered during the 2011 season, which cost him plays on the football field or substantially affected his play.
All the of the injuries occurred while Vick was in the pocket and in the process of completing a pass downfield.
This very important fact directly contradicts the prevailing thinking that Vick gets injures so frequently because of his reckless play. The facts shoot that claim down during the 2011 season, but I can’t say the same is true in previous years.
The fact that Vick suffered four injuries during the 2011 while completing passes out of the pocket says something completely different but it still doesn’t get the Eagles quarterback off the hook.
The fact is that far too many times he’s been injured, whatever the reason. Bottomline is that he’s got to stay healthy for the Birds have a good chance to make the playoffs then advance through them to the big prize.
If recklessness isn’t the reason for the frequent injuries then perhaps they tell us that maybe Vick’s body can’t take the constant pounding as well as the other, bigger marquee NFL quarterbacks.
Players get injured for different reasons, but the ones who get injured often are labeled injury-prone and maybe that’s more case with Mr. Vick, than we realized.
It maybe as simple as the guy just has brittle bones.
Short URL: http://gcobb.com/?p=30183
Posted by GarryCobb
on May 7 2012. Filed under BREAKING NEWS, Eagles, News, Quarterbacks.
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It might help Vick if Andy would run the ball more… Instead of hearing him tell me how Shady had too many carries last year… Defenses a couple of games we had less than 20 carries total for the team… I been saying this for many years now…. Andy needs to balance his offense in order to take some pressure off the passing game…
I agree Rasheed, but too many years that we have been looking for my balance in the offensive attack, no reason to believe that we will see anything different this year.
Maybe I am cynical, but when I heard Andy come out and say that he wanted to run Shadey less I actually first thought that it was a negotiation ploy to have Shadey appear less valuable to the team. We will never know of course, but it was just when my mind immediately ran.
Didn’t Vick get hurt with a miss read of a blitz by McCoy? Didn’t the same thing happen twice in the same game? This article implies that Vick gets hurt because of poor line play. I don’t think so and I don’t think I’m alone. How did Peters make the Pro bowl, how did Mathis make the top 100 list voted on by the players, how did Watkins & Kelce make the all rookie teams. Ask Baldinger, Didinger, or Cosell. They all agree that the Eagles OLINE was much improved last year. How did McCoy rush for a thousand yards? You don’t do that with a bad offensive line. I agree with Paulman. This year it’s all about Michael Vick and the skill positions to man up and play like their paid.
@Vinnie – you said “sorry that the chart didn’t translate well to this posting…but you can clearly see that Vick is worst in the league taking sacks over 3.5 seconds. Must be the oline”
This is what I found in regards to your above statement
“Vick was sacked after holding on to the ball for three seconds or more on 2.8 percent of his dropbacks, slightly above the league average of 2.7 percent. Of the 47 quarterbacks who attempted at least 60 passes last season, 21 had a higher rate in the three seconds or more category” – SO
So how do you come to the conclusion Vick was worst in the league?
Also, you like to quote Football Outsiders, right….you know the houdini stat, they keep?
measures how many times a quarterback escaped a sack. Vick led the league with 17. No other quarterback had more than 12. So, Vick very well might hold on to the ball longer than other quarterbacks, but those plays didn’t result in sacks at a high rate.
I hope Vick has a great year and we win the Superbowl enough said.
Having said that I like Nick Foles and I hope he is a player.
nick foles is a project, we will see, it is up to vick and that fat big man to finally put it together this year, no excuses, if reid and vick do not get it done, get rid of both of them, if they pull it off, hail to the chiefs, vick will be a hero, and the fat man memorialized like the greats of charlie manuel
Agree Foles is a project but I like his arm strength and size, so maybe they can coach him up. We shall see.
Foles will be a starter one day.. why? hes big and can take a beating and I agree I like how he throws it… In arizona he got killed and kept getting up every game ,opposite of kolb.. Kolb technically is pretty good but he got he once by clay mathews and it looked like he didnt want to play football nomore..
Paul…did you really bring up LeSean McCoy? Really? I’ll just basically except that you want to ignore the fact that he looked like he doing his best impression of Pinball Masters (playing the ball) behind the line that rarely created holes to hit because it doesn’t your perverted line of reasoning.
At the end of the day whether Reid is will to admit it since he brought his best bud Howard Mudd in is the the the offensive team was snake bitten by poor O-Line play through 3/4′s of last season. Post-season people seem to want to conveniently neglect to remember how bad the line was playing, that Watkins had to be pulled, that DeVan was pulled and the line was just generally leaky.
It’s nice to be able to pull articles that were written while things were fresh:
“..but his numbers in 2011 were not indicative of a lack of decision-making ability or accuracy as much as they were of a quarterback under constant pressure.” http://tinyurl.com/7cunzzq
Agreed, it lays in the hands of Vick & Reid. That’s why we will never win the SB, under this regime. Plain & simple. Hopefully I’m proven wrong.
Mccoy is a great talent and an excellent running back. He does have his issues like blitz pickup. Normally a zone back sure not be pinballing around. It’s one cut and if the hole is not there you put your shoulder down and get what you can. It’s a team game sometimes the backs make you look good other times not so much. Only the coaches really know but it’s fun for the fans to try to determine which.
McCoy gives up on holes too often looking for the home run play..
over a course of a game, he will break 1-2 longs runs by cutting back across designed play which is great when it works.. Over the last 5-6 Games last year, he faded a bit and when you took the big runs out, his average yards per carry was poor and remeber that McCoy did lead the league in getting tackled for negative yards behind the line of scrimmage too.. So was it the OL and was it McCoy trying to make the big play instead of hitting the hole for the play that was called and taking the safe 3-4 yards
I expect Defenses to defend the Eagles run a little different this Season,
Instead of Teams going hell bent after the Eagles QB, their ends may hold up a second to hold their ground and not allow many cut-back lanes as last Season.. as Teams that are familiar and face the Eagles often like the NFC East Rivals,Bears,Falcons,Packers,etc,etc) which in turn should help the Eagles Play-Action and give Vick a little more time in the Pocket..
Now Shadey sucks Paulman?? Who pissed in your cornflakes this week because there hasn’t been a single philly athelete that can draw even a mediocore evaluation from you these days?
I would venture to say that probably 30 teams in the NFL would jump at the chance to have McCoy in their backfield.
Once again Paul needs to use TP because the shit is dribbling out of the corners of his mouth.
“if you take away the big runs, his average is not that good”. NO SHIT SHERLOCK. THATS THE FRIGGIN POINT OF AVERAGES! IF YOU TAKE OUT THE BIG INVESTMENTS AND TAX BREAKS MITT ROMNEY ISN’T THAT RICH. IF YOU TAKE OUT THE MVP’S AND CHAMPIONSHIPS, MICHAEL JORDAN ISN’T SUCH AN ELITE ACCOMPLISHED BASKETBALL LEGEND.
And you’re talking about the designed play as if you know it – but you have a grand total of 0 ways to know the designed play.
PAUL – do you TRY to sound like a stupid person? Clearly you put a lot of time into it, but is it INTENTIONAL?
I like McCoy and think he’s a great player..I should have prefaced my above statement that his biggest weakness is trying for the home-run TD run on every carry and needs to limit these for sometimes when it’s not there, just plow ahead and follow the hole on the play called and get the 3-4 yards instead of losing 2-3-4 yards.. There were many cases where on 1st Down he was trying for the homerun and ended up losing yardage making it 2nd Down & 13.. There are times to take the chances for a big play and there are times to get the safe yards to keep the chains moving.. The Eagles problem Offensively is that all the skills players are boom or bust…from Vick,McCoy to D-Jax and I would like to see more consistent performances from all of the them and more time-consuming Drives which eat up clock and keep the momentum on the Eagles Side plus it allows the Defense to rest a bit.. Not every play is going to be a TD amd not every TD Drive needs to be a 2 1/2 minute Drive..
Why all the hate? My comment was directed at butch007 and his comment about McCoy pinballing all over the place and poor offensive line play. Paulman did not say McCoy sucks but said he too often looks for the homerun and I agree. If you don’t agree just Google the inside zone play and see what they say
dtime – Paul jumps on opportunities to go for the negative and piss off Philly fans. He does it for sport and he’s admitted it.
That aside, I think you’re pigeon-holing McCoy/the Eagles run game by going full force with that ‘inside zone play’ thing. He’s a versatile back, who yes, does dance latteraly a lot, but he’s not a ‘system back’ and I don’t think we use him in one specific way.
wow paul- wow. Here we go again- paulman trying to sound smarter than everyone else. Pman- why dont u start shady trade rumors now so in 7 years when they do trade him you can claim that you called it first?
I’m not disagreeing that McCoy is a great running back but the Eagles like most teams run a zone concept. Zone plays are designed to have the back read and t make one cut. McCoy does not always do that and it makes the OLine look bad. Like most things you have to take the good with the bad but there are times when its 3rd and 2 and you do not need a big run. I think that’s what Paulman was trying to point out
Watch the last 5 games the Eagles played last Seasons and Teams defended the big-runs by McCoy pretty well.. I expect Teams to adjust and have their DE and OLB’s stay at home more often on running downs. McCoy being the bright player that he is, could and do more damage running between the tackles if he cut’s and goes and gets into that 2nd Level and Secondary which means maybe not a lot of 30-40 yard runs but a lot of 7yd-12 yards run which demoralizes ands wears out a Defense over time.. ..
Schiller,
I guess I get a little carried away with my defensive of offensive lineman. I coach the Oline at the HS level and I guard them like a mother hen because at times I don’t think they get a fair shake. If I had a back like McCoy always running sideways I would probably would want to kick his %@*&. With that being said I need to recognize you can’t coach talent and you need to let that talent make big plays.
Concerning Paulman he seems alright to me.
McCoy never has been and never will be a one cut back. Period. You, dtime and paul are coveting a different type of back. Bryce Brown, and maybe Polk are your guys then. But McCoy is much more Barry Sandars esque than a one cut back.
There are allot of one cut runningback
dtime – agreed there are a lot of one cut backs. And there are not a lot of McCoys. We can have both if Polk or Brown work out well. Dixon is somewhere in between Shady and the one-cut style if you ask me.
Agreed !
Realtalk – to answer your question:
Vick was sacked after 3 seconds on 2.8% of his dropbacks (about middle of the pack for QBs)…..the 5.34% I posted (where he is second worst in the league) is the % of “long” sacks to pass atts. (different from dropbacks)
Why the difference? Well, because Vick took off and ran 76 times last year (3rd most among QBs). He would bave been around 100 if he had played all 16. This accounts for the big difference between his dropbacks and atts (and another of the issues I have with Vick – how its pretty much guaranteed that Vick will not run the play called 25% of the time and how hard this is on his O teammates)
So is Vick’s running a good thing? I don’t think so. This article is about Vick getting hit – exposing himself to injuries….running 100x a year invites hits. When we also see that the Birds Oline were above average in the league giving up sacks under 2.9 secs, its pretty clear that many of his runs were unnecessary.
I still stand by my earlier calculation that VIck takes at least 90 unnecessary hits a year. That combined with his small stature creates injury problems. Now that he’s ove 30, these problems will multiply exponentially.
@Giants Fan (aka Vinnie)… You are full of shyt!!!
per Sheil Kapadia:
Vick was sacked after holding on to the ball for three seconds or more on 2.8 percent of his dropbacks, slightly above the league average of 2.7 percent…
In other words, Vick was basically in the middle of the pack on sacks resulting from holding on to the ball too long. Some quarterbacks who were worse: Cam Newton (3.5 percent), Tony Romo (3.2 percent) and Ben Roethlisberger (3.0 percent).
But what the numbers don’t tell us is how often Vick held on to the ball for three seconds or more overall.
Football Outsiders keeps a stat called Houdinis, which measures how many times a quarterback escaped a sack. Vick led the league with 17. No other quarterback had more than 12. So, Vick very well might hold on to the ball longer than other quarterbacks, but those plays didn’t result in sacks at a high rate.
philly com/philly/blogs/moving_the_chains/150598695.html?jCount=2&#comments
“So is Vick’s running a good thing?”… per football outsiders it damn well is.
“and another of the issues I have with Vick – how its pretty much guaranteed that Vick will not run the play called 25% of the time and how hard this is on his O teammates” … This is a LIE and you have no idea how often Vick will not run the play in the huddle or if that is indeed the case.
@giants fan.. your conjecture has been debunked and destroyed!!! Rant sports is waiting for you.
Dipshit. You may need someone else to do your math homework for you, but I don’t.
Kapadia was pretty selective when evaluating the original stats.
Yes Vick takes long sacks on 2.8% of his dropbacks (middle of the pack), but Kapadia left out that its 5.34% per pass att (2nd worst in league).
Again, Vick has a huge discrepancy between drops and atts because he runs 100x a year. Sure, 17 of those last year may be considered “houdinis”, escaping pressure (after 3 secs of course) but does that explain the other 60x he ran? Doubtful.
Besides, this Gcobb article is about Vick getting hurt…how exactly does a “houdini” fix this problem. Vick gets hit in either scenario…either taking the sack, or scrambling downfield. Blammo!
Face it. He is an extremely slow decision maker, resulting in getting sacked at the 2nd highest rate among NFL QBs per attp. He also runs on almost 25% of his dropbacks…this is also completely unnecessary. He gets hit on the majority of these plays because he rarely slides or runs ob.
Mini-man takes about 6 or 7 unnecessary hits per game. hits + shrimp = injuries.
But hey….You’re the one who can;t think for yourself and loves reading “experts”. So here you go…
by Greg Cosell
As spring turns to summer, and then training camps open later in July, two NFC quarterbacks will be under the microscope: the Philadelphia Eagles’ Michael Vick and the Atlanta Falcons’ Matt Ryan.
Vick remains the most intriguing player in the NFL. It’s hard to believe he will be 32 years old in June. When Vick entered the league as the No. 1 overall pick in 2001, he was immediately celebrated as an athletic innovator who was going to revolutionize the game, surpass accepted and time-worn philosophies, and compel a re-thinking of the perceived limits of the NFL quarterback position.
It never quite happened in Atlanta, and it hasn’t really worked out that way in Philadelphia. There always will be breathtaking moments. Vick is a transcendent athlete, capable of extraordinary throws and runs at any given moment. Yet he always leaves you wanting more. The reason, in simplest terms: Vick is not, to this day, an accomplished passer. He remains a week-to-week player with little stability or continuity to his game. He’s always dangerous, at times dazzling, but seldom consistent.
Defensive coordinators no doubt will speak to the difficulty of defending Vick because of his dynamic, game-changing running ability. Yet, if Vick presents such an enormous challenge to match up against, why has that not frequently and consistently resulted in reliable performances? The most telling reason is Vick’s strong tendency to play outside of structure, beyond the design of the offense. It is very frustrating seeing Vick leave the pocket when pressure is not a factor and the route combination has not fully developed. He leaves a lot of throws on the field. For the uninitiated, it appears the Eagles OL is not very good. Those who believe that don’t understand quarterback play in the NFL.
If you play the position properly, and much goes into doing that both before and after the snap, you will play within structure a very high percentage of the time. Improvisation and sandlot play may occasionally look spectacular, but they are random and arbitrary. By definition, they are both positive and negative. That’s not the recipe for consistent success in the NFL.
2012 is the crossroads year for Vick. It begins with his first full off-season as an undisputed starter since his final year in Atlanta in 2006. He must use the time to better understand the subtleties of quarterback play, the nuances demanded to perform well play after play, week after week. NFL quarterback is a highly disciplined craft. For those like Vick who are exceptional athletes, it requires more intellectual discipline to properly harness that athleticism than is necessary for those players predisposed to play in the pocket. Perhaps the most damning assessment of Vick is this: his frenetic, haphazard approach sabotages his ability to stay on the field.
Bet you loved paragraph 4.
LOL!!!!!!!!!
You must be going out of your mind right now… First you try to prove your case with statistical analysis and when your analysis is proven to be STUPID AND INACCURATE… then you want to go with an opinion of Greg Cosell of all people. I read Cosell’s article long before you posted here my friend and it is pure speculation. There’s no empirical evidence to support his claim of “playing the position properly” just his opinion and a bit of antiquity to boot. LOL!!! The funny thing is that he disputes the Defensive Coordinators of this league and the validity of their respect for Vick as if he knows more then they do: “Defensive coordinators no doubt will speak to the difficulty of defending Vick because of his dynamic, game-changing running ability.” I’ve told you this time and again (and maybe you can pass this on to Cosell) it’s a team sport and if the QB is hard to stop then what you do next is neutralize whats around him. I don’t expect you to understand this because again YOU DON’T KNOW FOOTBALL. LOL!!!!
Don’t get mad at me about Houdini’s… profootball outsiders are your buddies… their the ones that said Vick’s ability to run get’s him out of trouble not me. Don’t shoot the messenger. LOL!!!
So now… Kapadia is being selective? Even thought he was critical of Vick in that very same article… Kapadia is just stating the facts and you can’t deal with that. And he’s using the same statistical analysis that you use when trying to spread propaganda about Vick. It must bother you that profootball outsiders was being selective when it left out just how many times Vick held the ball for 3 seconds or more… because it makes any claims that his holding the ball too long is frequent or detrimental to his play and the team pure speculation. I re-watched all the Eagles games from 2010 to 2011… just recently on NFL rewind and I was quite impressed with the majority of his play as were many of the commentators. He doesn’t hold the ball too long, but then again he plays in a big play offense where the focus is getting the ball deep down field more so than checking down to TEs or RBs so I can see how this might confuse you a little bit… But some times its difficult to get the ball down field when your TE’s and RB’s are often asked to help pass block because your O-Line isn’t performing up to par. Don’t worry eventually you’ll get it… just keep trying and take away some of the personal hate. LOL!!!!
YOU FACE IT Giants Fan… you’re wrong and you’ve been proven wrong time and again. Cam Newton had the best rookie season for a QB ever and he hold’s on to the ball longer than Vick… Ben Rothlisberger holds on to the ball Longer than Vick and he has two SB’s. Both of them however have better more accomplished WR’s around them and both of them have a consistent power Rushing game behind them. FACT!!!
GO EAGLES 2012!!!!!!!!
Cam Newton and Ben Rothless could both eat Vick and not gain a pound. The fact that they hold the ball too long and get hit is negated (somewhat) by the fact they each have legs bigger than Vick is.
You should rewrite your last line to “Eagles in 2013″ because they aren’t going anywhere with your wet dream running the show.
Ok we know you hate vick … we’ll see how he does .. if he throws for 28 touchdowns and 10 ints you have to perform oral sex on him .. deal?
Dtime, as far as the “One Cut” philosophy certainly on paper that sounds great to completely stick to that so everyone can clearly thumb their nose at the O-Line when not much yardage is gained, but even without that you could see that Dion Lewis and Ronnie Brown stuck to the one cut and rarely got beyond the line of scrimmage…before taking the “Cop Out” route and saying they both suck consider they were doing just fine behind Peters and Herremans before Herremans got shifted to LT.
larrwd, I don’t know that vick would go for that proposition. lol.